Labour User Labour Provider Group meeting 20 June 2022

Recording: Labour User Labour Provider Group meeting 20 June 2022

Please note the draft video played during the meeting has been removed from the recording. We will circulate it once it's been finalised.

A transcript of the recording can be found below.

 

 

 

 

Transcript of the meeting recording

Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you very much. So without further delay, I'm going to get on to the actual agenda. I've welcomed everyone and you can see that we've got lots of people joining. There are the minutes of the last meeting we had on the 23rd of November 2021 for your information. So I'm going to go on. I've quickly as possible to the first main substantive item which is the Ukraine update from Teresa Hardy, who's the head of homes for Ukraine sponsorship scheme at the Home Office.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
So, Teresa, I'm going to leave it to you now.

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John Devine (Guest)
Who?

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Teresa Hardy
OK. Thank you very much, Suzanne, and good morning everybody. I would just like my colleagues to join me on camera, who's going to be taking us through this session. We have with you this morning. So I have my colleague, Michael Coburn, who is going to be talking to you about the Ukraine family scheme. I have got Tom Livingstone with me today who leads on our in country Ukraine extension scheme. And I should also have Sandy sond online as well. Sandy, if you're there, if you could put your.

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Karolina (Guest)
No.

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Teresa Hardy
Camera on please. Who is from ad luck and will be talking to us about the homes for Ukraine scheme. So just by way of introduction, my name is Theresa Hardy. I'm currently heading up one of the major homes for Ukraine hubs based in Croydon. We have two other hubs dealing with Ukraine work based in Sheffield and Liverpool and the other part of my job is also looking at a new service management function.

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Teresa Hardy
Which will look across the end to end user journey from the time somebody has to leave Ukraine into a neighbouring country to the point of time they enter the UK, extend their stay in the UK and looking at every aspect of that particular journey from end to end.

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Teresa Hardy
Just by way of introduction, just to remind everybody, these two schemes, the Ukraine family scheme and the homes for Ukraine scheme launched in mid March time, so the schemes have not been running for that long as we know, they were set up as the joined Home Office and deluc response to the dreadful situation that was unfolding on the ground in the Ukraine and today it across the two schemes.

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Teresa Hardy
That the government has been running, we've had a round about 158 thousand applications for visas through both of those schemes. We have actually issued just under 100 and 33,000 visas up until the end of last week. And of those number roundabout 77 and a half thousand people have chosen to use those visas and travel through to the UK. So it's been a massive operation.

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Teresa Hardy
Involving a lot of effort internationally, also with our Border Force colleagues at the border and obviously through the various administration areas of the schemes that we are operating. So I'm going to first of all invite Sandy. I'm hoping Sandy is there with us. If she would like to come on camera and just give a very quick update on where we are initially with the homes for Ukraine scheme, which is the scheme actually run by DELUC, which is also supported by the.

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Teresa Hardy
Home Office. Thank you. Sandy, could you put your camera on?

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Sandee Sond
Thanks Teresa and my camera is on. Can I check if others can see me?

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Sandee Sond
I'll carry on, but my camera's on. Hopefully you can't see me so.

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Teresa Hardy
OK, sandy. OK, apologies, I can't see you.

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Sandee Sond
So I'm sandy. As Theresa said, I work for Deluc. I'm the operational safeguarding lien lead for homes for Ukraine, so I probably see the most cases coming through.

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Sandee Sond
I've just as a reminder, the homes to Ukraine scheme is different from a family scheme in that it doesn't require any relatives to be no relation between the sponsor and the house, so it can be absolutely strangers and we see people hosting friends who they've known for years all the way down to people who have met on Facebook. Sometimes shadier websites sponsoring through those routes. So the sponsorship is available for three years and sponsors do receive a thank you payment of £350.

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Sandee Sond
Her group, they sponsor per household.

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Sandee Sond
There's not per person, but instead, if you had 20 people or two people in your household, you still just get £350 and with the hands of Ukraine scheme there are some pre checks carried out. So there is a national company check carried out before the visa is issued. However, local authority checks are sometimes carried out after arrival, so that does mean the risk of local safeguarding issues is a little bit higher in homes Ukraine on.

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Sandee Sond
I'm exploitation of of workers in specific, the group that we see that the biggest issues probably farms. We do see other worker exploitation risk and we saw we do see other risks overall as well, but.

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Sandee Sond
To reject GLAA, I think the ones that are most of note are risks around farm. So we have had some cases which are individuals reaching out to.

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Sandee Sond
Beneficiaries and guests looking for somewhere to stay and offering them somewhere.

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Sandee Sond
And then those guests arrive and find that they have to work and pay rent and the payment of rent is against the rules of the scheme, as is the linkage of work and.

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Sandee Sond
Sponsorship so sponsors can choose to employ their beneficiaries if they'd like to on the scheme, and that is allowed for a there must meet living wage and can't be a condition. However, we've seen some cases where it's become a condition and they are put to very long hours, so untenable working conditions as well.

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Sandee Sond
And then so it's mostly farms. We have seen other so things like cleaning rolls have also balance that risk. So one thing that we do ask local authorities account for is where particularly there are multiple sponsorships. So maybe 20-30 applicants linked to one sponsor is an indicator there might be exploitation and we do ask local authorities to check. But one thing we have found unfortunately when local authorities go to conduct their checks because those are announced sometimes the.

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Sandee Sond
Signs of exploitation are hidden and sponsors are hidden as well.

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Sandee Sond
There was any questions on the host Ukraine scheme specifically?

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Sandee Sond
Thank you.

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Teresa Hardy
Ah.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
I will take questions at the end, Sandy from after we've heard from the entire presentation, but do stay on the line. We can't see you unfortunately, but we can't hear you.

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Teresa Hardy
OK, Sunday. Thank you very much. So I'm going to move across to Mike, who's going to give us a very quick overview of the Ukraine family scheme, just in terms of how that's been running and particularly if there are any issues to draw out on the safeguarding side. Thanks, Mike.

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Michael Coburn
Thanks, Theresa. OK, so the family scheme is sort of the sister schemes to the homes for Ukraine scheme. And so with the family scheme, the Ukrainians who are applying to join have to have a family member who's already settled in the UK. And so I would say that the risks are a lot less on the family scheme because the joining a family member, it would not really seeing the same sort of concerns around farms, fruit picking, things like that, where that we do on the homes for Ukraine scheme. So to keep it simple, how the family scheme works is the person or persons applying.

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Michael Coburn
Must be joined in their family member who's already in the UK, and they they can be British. They can be someone who's got permanent residence or sells status, for example.

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Michael Coburn
And and we count immediate family members will I'll just briefly go over who they are. So it's like the spouse or your durable partner, your children, your parents or your fiancee. And we also accept extended family members. So there are things like your cousins and your aunts, uncles, nieces and nephews. As long as there's a family group and we are quite flexible on the relationship aspect as well, and we don't split up families where someone is out of scope. For example, if you've got.

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Michael Coburn
A family group and then you've got a nephew of a nephew or something like that. Joining your. It's in the interests of the Ukrainians to grant them. We will do so.

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Michael Coburn
And like the phone tree Ukraine scheme, they get three years leads to remain in the UK. They get full allowance for access to funds they can work and study in the UK. And with regards to children on this scheme as well, it's a bit different than the homes for Ukraine scheme. So children who are on a company can join on the Ukraine family scheme as long as they're there's a relative that they joining as long as we get consent from the parents. And due to the consents around fathers fighting in the Ukraine and stuff, we can waive the consent requirement for both parents.

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Michael Coburn
If one of them are able to touch and things like that, and so, I would say from you know a GLAA perspective with the Ukraine family scheme and we're not seeing as much points of concern because they are joining the family and we're not seeing that expectation to where how it abuse going on on this particular route.

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Michael Coburn
Thank you.

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Teresa Hardy
Thanks very much. Sorry. Apologies, Mike, I spoke over you. Thank thanks very much if you could just stay on camera for the time being and then I'm just going to move across to Tom who's going to give you a little bit of an overview for what, what actually happens when you Ukrainian nationals arrive in the UK or Ukrainian nationals that are already living in the UK and need to seek an extension of their stay. Thanks Tom.

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Thomas Livingston
Are they? Thank you, Theresa. Morning, everyone. It's Teresa mentioned my name. Tom. I'm one of the operational managers currently working on the team. Considering the third visa scheme set up for Ukraine nationals and that became known as the Ukraine Extension scheme and it's the newer of the two schemes and it was launched in Parliament at the end of March rather than the middle to sit alongside the Ukraine family scheme and their homes, the Ukraine scheme. And then it went live for applications on the.

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Thomas Livingston
3rd of May, so it is relatively recent as well. The scheme kind of fills the gaps for Ukrainian nationals like Theresa mentioned, who were already in the UK with lawful immigration leave between the 1st of January this year and the 18th of March, who may not have a family or have established a sponsor in the UK.

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Thomas Livingston
So in terms of validity for those who can apply, it's a very uncomplicated visa route. The requirements are to have the correct nationality i.e. Evidence of Ukrainian nationality. The scheme is also open to non Ukrainian nationals, but under very specific and limited circumstances, so it differs from the UK and family skin a little bit there, but I'll just I'll clarify that shortly. They've got to make an application online, provide an appointment to enroll their biometric detail. They've got to be in the UK at the point of application and they've got to have lawful leave.

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Thomas Livingston
Before they apply as well.

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Thomas Livingston
And so in terms of definitions.

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Thomas Livingston
The lawful status is included. Visa routes that don't often lead to permanent residency here in the UK. So for example visitors or some student categories.

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Thomas Livingston
And where for example, where we're most of the open to roots, where permanent residency is acquired. But this one isn't open to that. It's not limited to that at all.

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Thomas Livingston
I spoke about the scheme being open to some non Ukrainian nationals so to be eligible under the Ukraine scheme and non Ukrainian national must be an eligible family member which is limited to a partner or a child, so it's immediate family members. So unlike the Ukraine family scheme where it can be nice as nephews et cetera, in laws, it is just a partner or a child. If you're an Ukrainian national.

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Thomas Livingston
And and again like the UFS, this is just to avoid instance of a family split as well. So much like the other three roots, the scheme grants 36 months of permission to remain in the UK with the right to work access to NHS services and access to public funds as well.

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Thomas Livingston
Uh, it's generally like the uh, Ukraine family screen. It's generally been a low risk route. It is the is the most recent one of the roots. So we've not seen too many issues so far. And in terms of risk to date, we've received over 11,000 applications on this route and we've issued over 6200 as of close of play last Friday and we're still awaiting around 3000 applications to make an appointment, some roll the biometrics, but we are keeping up with demand currently as well.

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Thomas Livingston
And that was me on the Ukraine extension scheme. Hopefully that brushed overview was useful.

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Teresa Hardy
Thank you very much indeed, Tom. So I am very conscious, we've only got about sort of 15 to 20 minutes with you this morning. I'm hoping that the overview that we have given just gives a little bit more insight into how the various parts of the scheme are operating. But Suzanne, if anyone got any questions, we'll we will try and answer them for you now, so.

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Teresa Hardy
Uh.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you very much. First of all, can I thank you and your colleagues for what was a very clear presentation of what the Ukrainian scheme various parts are. I've not had. Well, yes, I have not. I've got a question, a family scheme. This comes from Isaac Ardu families game. How long does it take for them to have a Council house? Is there anything that can be done to accelerate the process?

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Teresa Hardy
So.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
To my daughter, that one.

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Teresa Hardy
I'll see if Sunday can pick that one up for us. Sandy, is it something you can advise on?

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Sandee Sond
So on the family scheme, I'm not sorry the dielectric actually get involved in the family scheme, but on housing, I know there is a wait for housing.

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Sandee Sond
With the homes you're here, we do have a minimum expectation of six months of sponsorship. I'm not sure what expression expectations on families to host their relatives by expected. It would be quite similar.

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Teresa Hardy
Yeah. So I think you know the the intention would be for somebody to stay and live with their family member. But Michael, is there anything else that you can add to what Sandy has said in terms of, have you seen any examples where somebody may have started living with a family member, a relative and then have decided that they wanted to move into their own sort of housing arrangement?

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Michael Coburn
Yeah. I mean on the families team, they would be free to do so.

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Michael Coburn
And to be frank, it might be a little bit of an unwise with them to do that and in the long run, none of these schemes are currently router settlements.

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Michael Coburn
And at the way things are, and the three years wouldn't give them sufficient time in the UK to build up every to settlement and the, as Tom points out, the extension scheme also currently is the free to access funds in the UK and go to the local authority. But I don't believe there's anything special in place about housing for them at this time.

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Michael Coburn
And you know, decently wouldn't be anything accelerated for them on the family scheme.

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Teresa Hardy
OK.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you. Should we move on to the next question? I've had a question here which asked what advice would you give to undocumented Ukrainians already in the UK?

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Teresa Hardy
So I'm going to pass that one over to Tom to see if he's seen any cases where Ukrainians have come forward without. I'm presuming that means without a passport or travel document or any other form of identity. Tom, any advice on that one please?

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Thomas Livingston
Yeah. And if that's the case, then there without sort of trouble documentation.

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Thomas Livingston
Uh, what? We have been in, at least this is the case for the either either roots as well. We've been taking a pragmatic approach, so people that have.

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Thomas Livingston
Left the Ukraine and under difficult circumstances may not have the documents with them, so if they're applying from outside the UK in that situation and they are advised to attend a visa application center, that's broad. If the currently in the UK.

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Thomas Livingston
Hey, without passports, what we were doing is that accepting other forms of identification, such as national ID, stuff like that. And if that's not possible with the justified reason, we are taking a pragmatic approach in conjunction with other documentation that they can provide as well. Just so we can process that application.

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Teresa Hardy
And can I?

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
I have another sorry. Please translate.

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Teresa Hardy
Sorry, I was going to say can I just also check Tom, are they being asked to give their biometrics to Visa Application Centre for those that are already in the UK?

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Thomas Livingston
Yes, they are. Yes, they are. If they were playing in that scheme as well.

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Teresa Hardy
Thank you. Just for clarification, sorry Suzanne.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
No, no, with my fault. What will happen? I've been asked by Ivana Glassner what will happen after six months.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Does that? Does that make sense? That's a question.

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Ivana Glassner
Yes.

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Sandee Sond
I think that will be for myself, as the six months supplies on homes for Ukraine, so after six months we are asking hosts to extend their.

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Sandee Sond
The sponsorships where they can up to a year, but those who cannot offer more than six months, we are hoping some families and some individuals who come on home to Ukraine will become independent and find rented accommodation. If not, we're looking at what we won't be able to do at that six month point. We're aware that's about three months away now, so we are looking at what the option might be. Maybe response ship.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
OK, Louise asked. What's the average time for completing a believer application for individuals applying under the home for Ukraine. Scheme? Is the fees accessible in different languages?

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Teresa Hardy
So just before we pick this one up, Suzanne, there was another not so much a question, but a comment from David Camp with an offer.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Yes, I was going to pick that up at the end, Teresa.

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Teresa Hardy
Yeah, fine. Thank you. So in terms of an average time, it's it is a little bit difficult to determine that. First of all, depending on whether it's the homes for Ukraine or the Ukraine family scheme, basically we are trying to process applications as soon as they are received. They do have to go through a number of security and background checks depending on what those checks may come up with may determine a slightly longer waiting time for the applicant before the visa can be totally.

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Teresa Hardy
Finalized and at the moment we have good still got a few outstanding policy issues which we are working on, but bearing in mind I explained at the start that this was these were schemes that were put together at very, very short notice in response to an to an International Crisis. And as we are working through the schemes, we are finding areas that do need to be clarified, particularly around what we are calling unaccompanied minors or children under the age of 18 who wished to utilize.

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Teresa Hardy
The homes for Ukraine scheme and also we are finding questions around if a sponsor wants to I suppose sponsor more than one family to come over. So we are clarifying some policy matters, which means that some applications may get a little bit delayed until those policy positions can be clarified. But the aim is to actually work through applications as quickly as we possibly can in date order that we receive them the guidance.

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Teresa Hardy
That goes out, I believe, is available in both Ukrainian and Russian.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you, Chris.

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Teresa Hardy
To help the applicants understand what they must do, and we also have a call centre available which is open for applicants to use if they do have any queries about the application process and just need a little bit further guidance and that that also has Ukrainian Russian language support as well. Thank you. I don't know whether any other colleagues wish to add to anything I've just said.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
I'm going to give one more question then I'll bring in the David Camp point that you've seen already. There is a an issue here from Kelly then she's aware of an example of a family of four coming over for the whole scheme and Lincolnshire within two days. The father had moved out and gone to work for a car wash. The elder son followed shortly afterwards after turning down work on the host farm. The mother and younger child are still with the UK family. What would be the advice for the UK family to determine the course of action going forward?

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
They are concerned that the situation with prearranged do they contact their local authority or the GLAA?

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Teresa Hardy
So we wouldn't normally go into conversation over individual cases, I'm afraid, but I will just say, if there's some principles around this that any of my colleagues would like to address. So homes for Ukraine, sandy, any principles there that you'd like to pull out? And I don't know whether, James, there's an angle there at all around the sort of safeguarding. And then anything that you'd like to pick up. Sandy, I'll come to you first.

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Sandee Sond
Absolutely. Thank you. So on this one, we would expect the sponsor to go to the local authority. So the relationship is between the sponsor and the local authority here. So that's what we expect the first instance to be to discuss what might be the next step and also any concerns that the local authority can support with as well.

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Teresa Hardy
Thank you, James. Is there anything in it for you, do you think or or not at the moment on this question?

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James Turner
No, it's secularly and hello everybody. So the reason I'm I'm here is I'm the operational lead for employment visas within the Home Office, so I.

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James Turner
Cover season Mariculture work of visas as a as a day job.

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James Turner
And I think the difficulty or the difference between the Ukrainian concessionary schemes that have been set up.

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James Turner
And what were and are the traditional seasonal worker schemes are that they don't.

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James Turner
And pin somebody to a particular employer.

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James Turner
So the individual has got a lot more licence to move around and choose alternative employment.

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James Turner
There are benefits, I guess, for Farm farm workers and farm farm managers in so much that some of the same restrictions that are in place for seasonal agricultural workers don't exist within the Ukrainian concession schemes. But then there is a higher risk that in an individual finds alternative employment or preferable employment. Then they've got the freedom to move and find that further employment. So it's a bit of a double edged sword, I guess in that respect.

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James Turner
But as as Teresa says, and as somebody says, then they in this circumstance would have to contact their local authority or the GLAA.

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Teresa Hardy
Thanks.

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Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you, James. Teresa, I'm going to just bring in the point that you were saying that David Camp has actually made where he is, asked David Camp of the ALP has asked could we work with you on a short brief on the issues experienced on farm to share more widely to prevent reoccurrence. Theresa.

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James Turner
Yeah.

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Teresa Hardy
So so first of all, I'd like to thank David very much for coming forward with with an offer to engage around this. We are very, very keen to engage with the communities. As I said, we are learning a lot through operating these schemes and like with everything else, we are trying to make them better. James, I'm just wondering in the first instances whether this might be an offer for your team to pick up and to probably better understand how we can work together on this before we probably bring in.

0:25:45.410 --> 0:25:46.960
Teresa Hardy
And you sort of wider elements.

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James Turner
Yeah, I mean, so that's so it's a bit of a new one, Scully and crossover between the two schemes and.

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James Turner
Let's put this into context. In March this year, when these schemes were announced and and were set as a.

0:26:3.310 --> 0:26:4.920
James Turner
Government priority.

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Teresa Hardy
Sorry.

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Teresa Hardy
Like.

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James Turner
Every single one of my 400 staff was switched off. Business as usual activity and moved into operating these schemes and contributed to the hundreds of thousands of individuals who successfully come through and and, you know, found and found safety in the UK.

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James Turner
Subsequently, my teams have been switched back on.

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James Turner
So there is actually a lot more available labour in the UK now.

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James Turner
They're not lead. The would have been in any of the previous year.

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James Turner
If those individuals do choose to work in the farm and environment, so beyond the 130,000 individuals who've come through the Ukrainian schemes, what we've also done is processed todate, almost 25,000 season, like a cultural workers schemes.

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James Turner
Uh visas.

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James Turner
Of which we've got 5000 more to meet the annual quota, an 8000 more will be released in the very near future with the further 2000 for poultry workers later in the year.

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James Turner
So there is gonna be a lot of opportunity for individuals to work on farms, either through the, you know, the more orthodox scheme which seasonal worker or if the safeguard measures are in place and there are no risks to the individual through the Ukrainian schemes. So it will be useful to understand a bit more of the individual experiences that farms are experiencing.

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James Turner
But there there has been an awful amount of work by the Home Office to protect.

0:27:53.430 --> 0:28:10.190
James Turner
The supply chain I'm farms this year and it's been under incredibly difficult circumstances, especially as broadly speaking, the majority of farm workers who comes to the Ukraine, uh, come to the UK, they've traditionally been Ukrainian.

0:28:36.140 --> 0:28:36.400
Teresa Hardy
Yeah.

0:28:11.170 --> 0:28:41.640
James Turner
And unfortunately, there was an invasion of their country at the time when the recruitment for the season starts so that there's been an enormous amount of work done to try and mitigate that and and work with the providers such as James, who's gonna speak shortly in identifying new areas to recruit from as well. So, but it would be interesting to some particular case studies and understand if there's anything better that we can do as well.

0:28:41.930 --> 0:28:43.220
James Turner
So support the sector.

0:28:44.140 --> 0:29:8.30
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Teresa, can I leave you to obviously engaged with David outside the meeting? I know there's some other questions we've had, but I think I'm going to have to for reasons of time, stop it there. But we will answer any unanswered questions later. So people who've asked the questions, you won't be forgotten. So can I. Thank you. Teresa and your colleagues.

0:29:19.190 --> 0:29:19.720
Teresa Hardy
Thank you.

0:29:8.690 --> 0:29:35.430
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Extremely helpful people have obviously been very engaged with this just by looking at the questions that have come through. So thank you very much. We're going to move now on to have GLAA update from our CEO. But can I tell people that the survey link that I mentioned earlier is actually up there? Katherine has put it up. So thank you. Michael. Are you staying with us for this item?

0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:39.340
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you.

0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:45.740
Michael Coburn
Hey I am going to drop off if that's OK, but happy to if any further questions come up relating to family scheme. Obviously send them my way or Theresa's way and will happily answer them.

0:29:48.290 --> 0:29:49.80
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
OK.

0:29:53.180 --> 0:29:53.670
Michael Coburn
Thank you.

0:29:51.790 --> 0:29:54.470
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Well, thank you for extremely helpful.

0:29:45.700 --> 0:29:55.870
Teresa Hardy
Yes, I think we'll all dip out now, Suzanne, and leave you to the rest of your meeting. Thank you very much for allowing us to join you. Thank you, everybody. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye.

0:29:56.510 --> 0:30:6.880
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you, Elisa. You need no introduction. You are the CEO of GLAA and everyone is very interested to hear what you got to say. So I'm going to let you give the update.

0:30:7.650 --> 0:30:16.780
Elysia McCaffrey
Thank you, Suzanne. Well, I was very interested to hear that last section really interesting. I'm really grateful for colleagues for their time doing that for us this morning.

0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:49.410
Elysia McCaffrey
And so, yeah, I'm gonna talk a little bit about our business plan and our strategy and then take any questions that anybody has. We are now in the third year of our three year strategy and what we tend to do is produce a business plan every year that sits within that we have signed off our business plan for this year with our board. It's still with the Home Office. We have to wait for the Minister to sign it off before we're able to publish it and put it out there for everybody. But I'm gonna tell you what's in it now. So don't worry about the minister signing off. I'm sure that will come soon.

0:30:49.770 --> 0:31:20.300
Elysia McCaffrey
And so yeah, it sets out our intent for the next 12 months. Umm, as we continue to work on combating labour exploitation, what we've done this year is we've reflected really on the fact that it's now five years since the gang Masters and Labour Abuse Authority was formed, giving us broader and tougher powers to tackle slavery and forced and compulsory labour. And in that time we have really seen our licensing scheme grow. We've built strong partnerships across the public, private and 3rd sectors.

0:31:20.390 --> 0:31:50.530
Elysia McCaffrey
And we've successfully disrupted and prevented and a significant amount of of exploitation. That work continues in this plan, which is the first since I became chief executive a year ago. And it's the 1st as well since Julia Mulligan took over as the chair of our board within this week, we looked to build on those successes and there are some really significant challenges, though still in the fight to protect workers emerging from the pandemic pandemic emerging from leaving the EU.

0:31:50.650 --> 0:32:18.500
Elysia McCaffrey
And of course, emerging from the war in Ukraine, which we've been talking about this morning, and and all of these things and other things, you know, have the potential to really change the climate around exploitation and to create more potential for exploitation. And we wanna make sure that we're on the front foot as much as we can be working with other departments, working with other partners to make sure that we stop and unscrupulous people taking advantage of all of these sets of situations.

0:32:19.310 --> 0:32:50.380
Elysia McCaffrey
So all of this really makes it imperative that we operate as effectively as we can and that we continue to work with our partners. I'm sure many of you know this, it's something that I say slash grumble about a little bit, a lot is that GLAA is a really, really small team. You know, we work across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland and we couldn't do this with the effectiveness that we do. If it wasn't for the partnerships that we have, including with many of you on the call today. And we really value those and we recognize.

0:32:50.500 --> 0:32:55.390
Elysia McCaffrey
And the advantage that it gives us given being such a small team. So thank you for that.

0:32:55.570 --> 0:33:27.680
Elysia McCaffrey
I'm. I'm just gonna touch a little bit on our four main priorities for this year and I'll say a little bit about what's within those. And so the first of our priorities is to enhance our understanding of labour exploitation to better inform and prioritise operational activity. And what this really means on the ground is that we're having a real investment and a real change in how we manage our intelligence and our information within the organization. We're gonna do a lot more work with partners to make sure that we've got the best view of what's happening across the country.

0:33:27.800 --> 0:34:0.830
Elysia McCaffrey
And to make sure that we're able then to really target the limited resources that we have in the right places to have the biggest impact, we're gonna be improving our communications and we've listened a lot to feedback from stakeholders about how our internal system works for them, what happens when intelligence is reported to us, what you hear, what you don't hear and making sure that we've got a greater level of transparency to give everybody what they need and to help people to work with this really clearly. The second of our four priorities for this year is about delivering an effective regulatory scheme that drives business compliance.

0:34:0.930 --> 0:34:30.380
Elysia McCaffrey
In the regulated sector and support good practice, of course, we've been regulating for a long time and we're really proud of a lot of what we do. But we wanna do even more, we want to be able to speed up decisions, increase inspections and so on and so to do that we have, despite our resource constraints, we've recruited some new people to join the team who will be getting up to speed quickly and we'll be able to help us to get through that work more quickly. And we're also running a continuous improvement program.

0:34:30.930 --> 0:35:1.780
Elysia McCaffrey
To make sure that we are as efficient as we can possibly be on regulation, our third priority is more of an internal focused one and which is about supporting our people to thrive in a really positive and values like culture with a focus on inclusion and wellbeing. I think you'd struggle to find an organization that doesn't have an objective like that, but we have colleagues here doing incredibly difficult jobs and seeing incredibly difficult things and doing so with quite limited resources and so on. And we wanna make sure that we've got.

0:35:1.990 --> 0:35:34.840
Elysia McCaffrey
The most supportive organization that we can and that we're as diverse as we can be so that we are where we can, reflecting the people that we really wanna serve and and just making sure that we're really positive and engaging organization to work with. And then our 4th one the, the one that makes me sad every time I say it gotta say it is aligning our priorities with our capacity, resources and budget. It's no secret that across government at the moment money is really, really tight and there's a lot of pressure on arms length, bodies and core departments as well to really prove.

0:35:34.950 --> 0:36:5.910
Elysia McCaffrey
Of value into operate with with as little money as possible, frankly. And so we're looking to make sure that we're as efficient as we can be and that we're not over promising that we're operating in the best way we can with the money that we have. So those are our four priorities for this year. And of course, just as a reminder, those operate within our strategy as it exists and with our current vision, which is to be a world class organization in the fight to tackle labour exploitation and with our mission, which is working in partnership to protect vulnerable and exploited workers.

0:36:6.110 --> 0:36:21.260
Elysia McCaffrey
So, Suzanne, I'm gonna pause there because that was a little bit of a whistle stop tour through a kind of high level bits of our business plan. As I say, we will be publishing this just as soon as the Minister signs off and it's got a little bit more detail in there on the specifics of what we're gonna be doing throughout the year.

0:36:22.260 --> 0:36:27.40
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
OK. Thank you very much. I'm trying to see if we're going to get some questions in for you.

0:36:27.420 --> 0:36:44.70
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Umm elysia. But so far we haven't had a question as such. I don't know if there's anything in particular you wanna pick out why people are possibly typing on their keyboards to send you a question. Is there any particular issue that you would like to highlight?

0:36:45.110 --> 0:37:17.220
Elysia McCaffrey
I think really just that we've got a very, very significant ambition here and what we're really trying to do is make sure that we're targeted always in the best way possible. And I think that you know historically we've perhaps dealt with a lot of intelligence that isn't relevant to our organization and that's quite time consuming. So we're looking at making sure that we help sign post people in the right way. So if an issue comes to us, it's actually the HMRC for the national minimum wage team. We we're looking to kind of redesign a bit, so that actually you can go straight to them so that people know where to go.

0:37:17.420 --> 0:37:48.650
Elysia McCaffrey
So that that will then free up our time to focus on stuff that's really within our remit. So we've just got a real drive on being really efficient, really focused and making sure within the small team that we have, we're really hitting the mark as much as we possibly can. And also you know anyone who's on the call today if they ever need to follow up with us directly, they're very welcome to contact me or to contact Catherine, the comms team or Nicola, if it's about regulation, Ian, if it's about enforcement or frank, of course, if it's about prevention and we're always happy to hear when people directly stuff, there's no questions now.

0:37:48.810 --> 0:37:59.500
Elysia McCaffrey
That's not a problem. I think that puts you back on track with your UM agenda a little bit because we are quite a lengthy first session, but it's completely worth it. And yeah, I'm happy for people to follow up with me separately. Suzanne.

0:38:2.240 --> 0:38:2.600
Elysia McCaffrey
I am.

0:38:3.420 --> 0:38:3.820
Elysia McCaffrey
Yes.

0:38:9.620 --> 0:38:10.140
Elysia McCaffrey
Wonderful.

0:37:59.860 --> 0:38:30.10
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Right. And are you going to be staying on this call at the end? Well, if a question does come in, I and there's an appropriate moment, I will bring you back on screen. But I'm sure everyone is really pleased to hear how focused the GLAA is on our delivering its its statutory objectives. So thank you. And I will then move on swiftly then to James Malik. James I hope you're with us. Ah, I have do have a question for Alicia. So I'll hold James.

0:38:30.210 --> 0:38:32.130
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
In a band, the Bing Elysia back up.

0:38:32.870 --> 0:38:35.470
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
If I can, are you with us still?

0:38:37.260 --> 0:38:40.170
Elysia McCaffrey
I am. I just stayed on pause for a moment, then.

0:38:41.970 --> 0:38:42.520
Elysia McCaffrey
Well, there was.

0:38:54.30 --> 0:38:54.510
Elysia McCaffrey
Yes.

0:38:38.380 --> 0:38:55.450
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Excellent. Somebody got in there just before I could let you go. She saying you're compliant strategy commits to inspecting every license at least once every five years. Is this still your intent? That's from Joanne Young. And then I have another question after that.

0:38:55.850 --> 0:39:8.120
Elysia McCaffrey
Yes, that is our intent. We we've had to be slightly slower getting off the ground with our strategy than we wanted to because we had some resource constraints which we have now rectified. So yes, that is still our intent.

0:39:8.740 --> 0:39:38.620
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Excellent. And then Loanna Bramwell has asked with regards to license applications and we understand the delays and new applications are due to staffing, letter levels etcetera. However, do you think there could be a grace period throughout the application process to enable the LP to supply and to a license is approved. My thoughts on this is to prevent unlicensed supply due to delays or loss of contracts for LP's and take some of the pressure off the licensing team.

0:39:39.330 --> 0:39:39.790
Elysia McCaffrey
I'm at.

0:39:39.220 --> 0:39:40.690
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Has happened. Thought about it all.

0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:46.100
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
That's right.

0:39:40.820 --> 0:39:48.530
Elysia McCaffrey
Yes, it has. I'm actually gonna hand over to Nicola who sat next to me. She's just indicated she's happy to answer the questions. So Nicola.

0:39:48.250 --> 0:39:53.270
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Right. Excellent. Nothing like delegation, both chief executive. Nicola, please join us.

0:39:53.660 --> 0:40:24.630
Nicola Ray
That's what happens when you sit next door to each other. I just wave at each and say I'll take that one and it's something we thought about in the past, this issue about whether we could allow people to have this sort of equivalent of a temporary license or until the sort of permanent license can be delivered. There are some risks to that, obviously, and we need to make sure really the our focus is on improving the time scales of delivering our licenses. I will take that thought away though, just to have a look at that to see what the impact of that might be on our applications.

0:40:26.240 --> 0:40:43.760
Nicola Ray
But yeah, it's only something to consider, but obviously we'd need to think about that against the risks of what that might mean with people coming forward for applications, and also obviously to give them the imperative as well to make sure that they engage with the process. One of the issues for us is people putting applications in and they're not directly engaging very promptly with the process as well. So yeah.

0:40:44.450 --> 0:41:8.520
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you, Nicola. Good thing that you and Alicia are together and able to pass back and forth the ball. I'm. I'm thank you. Now I think we will now move to James Malik, who is compliance and implementation Director at Pro 4th and I'm delighted to see you there. We were a little worried for a moment. We might be able not to see you, but you're going to talk about the seizure seasonal workers scheme update. There you go, James.

0:41:8.930 --> 0:41:24.560
James Mallick
Perfect. Thank you, Suzanne. Good morning, everybody. As hopefully you can see my screen now. As Suzanne says, I'm the compliance and implementation director here at Pro Force Pro Force are one of the four operators of the Seasonal workers scheme.

0:41:24.840 --> 0:41:50.450
James Mallick
Uh James Turner very briefly talked through it earlier on, but just to give you those numbers again and the seasonal worker agricultural scheme is 38,000 visas this year for edible and non edible placements in horticulture sector 26 week placements and later in 2022 there will be 2000 placements available for the poultry sector.

0:41:51.180 --> 0:41:59.670
James Mallick
On a slightly shorter length of visa, but we're still waiting for the full details on that. I'm sure that will be shared with you as soon as it becomes available.

0:42:0.370 --> 0:42:2.980
James Mallick
What I want to talk to you about today is some of the more.

0:42:3.320 --> 0:42:8.890
James Mallick
And at work and knowledge projects that we've been working on over the last 12 months.

0:42:9.650 --> 0:42:38.20
James Mallick
When these are collaborative projects that we've been working on with the other operators of the seasonal workers scheme with the GLAA, with growers, with a number of NGOs, with retailers and of course with worker input, so they're really valuable projects that are targeted at better informing workers and and better and better informed workers, we hope will make better decisions when armed with all the information.

0:42:38.800 --> 0:42:48.230
James Mallick
The first project I'd like to talk to you about is the just good work app, so this is a freely available app that's available both on iOS and Android.

0:42:49.40 --> 0:42:49.780
James Mallick
And the main.

0:42:51.150 --> 0:42:57.120
James Mallick
App is is focused on giving worker information about working in the UK.

0:42:57.990 --> 0:43:6.760
James Mallick
And it initially comes from from. This is a guy called Tom. So Tom is A and Kenyan bus driver working in Qatar and.

0:43:8.320 --> 0:43:13.240
James Mallick
Some some years ago he he got in touch with the company called 58, who are the makers of the app.

0:43:14.190 --> 0:43:21.320
James Mallick
And he explained some of the challenges and problems that he had had in making that journey to Qatar to take on on a new job role.

0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:47.460
James Mallick
One of the things that Tom was sort of very committed to was that he he wouldn't advise anybody to go and he wouldn't advise anybody not to take that leap and take a new job in new country. But what he would really want would be for workers to be making informed decisions. And so that was the trigger then for 58 to develop the just good work app. So as I've said, the just good work app is really about taking workers.

0:43:48.440 --> 0:44:8.150
James Mallick
Through the process of working in in, in another country and and just good work out. Now it's bespoke to the UK and it's available to them even before they start to make their application search really important in terms of accessing that information very early on. So workers are making informed decisions, potentially even before they've made an application.

0:44:9.690 --> 0:44:39.850
James Mallick
18 months ago and Pro Force became aware of the app and and and we work really closely with 58 to make a A a a version that was available to seasonal workers through our scheme, many of which who were Ukrainian but the the app although in multiple languages wasn't in Ukrainian at the time so Pro Force funded the project to develop the app into Ukrainian version and then subsequently the app has become on to be developed further for a.

0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:42.300
James Mallick
Bespoke product for the seasonal workers scheme.

0:44:43.340 --> 0:45:13.870
James Mallick
The collaboration that's occurred in order to get this product up and running specific for the seasonal workers scheme has been phenomenal. We've had all of the UK's largest supermarkets, we've had the GLAA involved, the ALP has been been involved, growers have been involved, workers have been involved and over the last 12 weeks, the funding that that group has put together and the level of investment in time and energy to get the the data right has.

0:45:13.980 --> 0:45:38.960
James Mallick
Uh culminated in NAP, which was released two weeks ago. Again, publicly available free to download for all workers, and it's the start point for a really exciting project that will go on to then provide a venue for workers to feedback real life experience for them to access more additional information and also potentially to get information about the specific farm that they're going to.

0:45:40.290 --> 0:46:3.920
James Mallick
I think the key thing here is this is a multilingual app, so it's available in in many, many languages. And as we expand the seasonal workers scheme, as James said earlier, we've had to go to a number of new countries this year due to the situation in Ukraine, and we'll make sure that that app maintains translation so that it's always going to be available to workers coming into the UK.

0:46:6.130 --> 0:46:35.940
James Mallick
Very similar to the to the main product to just good work app for this SWS is information that's available to work, a free employment and I think that's what we're really trying to achieve with this project is to get this information available to the worker upstream, hopefully before they even know about the operators and hopefully before they apply it really is an opportunity for them to fully understand the process of coming to the UK and the rights that they have access to.

0:46:36.100 --> 0:46:36.750
James Mallick
Well, they're here.

0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:55.900
James Mallick
And what we've seen is this is some live data from just last week. So about seven days after the new version had gone live. And as you can see, it's already being downloaded globally and and all of this activity is coming from.

0:46:56.520 --> 0:47:13.630
James Mallick
Uh PR processes and projects that are being put in place by the operators because we are now publicly making this available on our websites through our social media channels, as are the retailers, the growers and the ALP.

0:47:14.430 --> 0:47:18.640
James Mallick
So having hopefully a real immediate impact on working knowledge.

0:47:22.620 --> 0:47:38.260
James Mallick
There's a huge range of resources available to promote the app. If you are a member of the seasonal workers scheme over the next few weeks, your provider will be writing to you to share these resources, and I'm sure they'll be available as well via the ALP and the GLAA.

0:47:41.190 --> 0:47:50.380
James Mallick
The other project I'd like to talk to you about today is, is, is again based on work and knowledge and and improving workers ability to make informed decisions.

0:47:51.960 --> 0:48:16.70
James Mallick
We have put together a worker video in conjunction with the other operators, which is fruitful. Concordia AG and very much in collaboration with the GLAA again designed to give workers access to information enabling them to make better decisions, enabling them to fully understand their rights and hopefully, before they even apply, they will have access to this information.

0:48:17.400 --> 0:48:36.740
James Mallick
This isn't the final edit, but we'd like to share it with you today so that you can see our intention with the video. It's about 6 minutes long. Hopefully you will be able to see my screen and also here the audio. Katherine, if I could ask you to let me know if the audio doesn't come across and I will play this video for you now and hope you enjoy.

0:58:48.510 --> 0:59:10.800
James Mallick
Thank you for sharing that, Katherine, and thank you for saving me online. And so the the purpose of that video is to really give workers access to the voices of of fellow workers. The intention is for the subtitles at the bottom to be translated into multiple languages. So that again, the video becomes very accessible.

0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:14.650
James Mallick
To to workers and helps better inform them.

0:59:15.90 --> 0:59:23.790
James Mallick
And just going back to the just good work app, if you look in the chat, Joanne Young from the AP has shared the link to those.

0:59:25.330 --> 0:59:47.0
James Mallick
Publicity resources that I mentioned earlier, please the the most important thing that that you can do to help us today is to help get this information to workers. Otherwise it becomes pretty useless if the workers aren't aware of it. So if you could help us share the message on the just good work app and as soon as that video goes live, we will let you all know. And again please do share.

0:59:48.220 --> 0:59:52.310
James Mallick
I think that's my time's up. Uh, Suzanne, back to you in less. There's any questions.

1:0:13.550 --> 1:0:28.600
Elysia McCaffrey
As it looks like we might have lost Suzanne and we did lose a couple of us in this room at the start of that fantastic video. So I missed the start. So I'm gonna have to watch it again. But hopefully Suzanne will be back with us soon. But thank you, James. Well, there any questions for James?

1:0:38.340 --> 1:0:40.270
Elysia McCaffrey
Have we got one there in the chat function?

1:0:41.700 --> 1:0:43.610
Elysia McCaffrey
Lovely. So UM.

1:0:45.620 --> 1:0:53.410
Elysia McCaffrey
Oh yes, so a couple of people have been kicked out. Umm, we're in the process of getting a GLAA licence and we're interested in partnering up with Pro Force. How can we do it? Please advise.

1:0:54.0 --> 1:1:2.810
James Mallick
I will drop my e-mail address into the chat and please just reach out to me directly and we we can have a conversation to see how we can support.

1:1:3.600 --> 1:1:8.750
Elysia McCaffrey
Fantastic and uh Dan is asking if we can e-mail the video to the distribution list.

1:1:9.780 --> 1:1:11.160
Elysia McCaffrey
Not sure why not, yeah.

1:1:9.540 --> 1:1:32.170
James Mallick
Yeah, absolutely. So that was a a second edit. We've still got a bit of work to do on some of the sound and just some of the transitions in the slides, but we're hoping to have that done on the with the final edit over the next couple of weeks. And yeah, if I can then send it on to the GLAA for you to share with everyone that's on this meeting, that would be wonderful.

1:1:32.700 --> 1:2:2.630
Elysia McCaffrey
Yet of course, we're really happy to now pauses answer. She's on screen. She doesn't know why we can't hear her, and she was kicked out twice. A few of us were kicked out, Suzanne. And so I'm not sure why until you can speak in a way that we can hear. Suzanne, I will just say on behalf of everybody, thank you so much, James. That was really good and really informative and really good piece of work. We'll pick up that action to share the video and you've shared your e-mail address as well with an invite. The people can contact you. So thank you.

1:2:2.950 --> 1:2:3.420
James Mallick
Welcome.

1:2:2.870 --> 1:2:7.80
Elysia McCaffrey
And let's move on in our agenda then, Martin, I think you're up next.

1:2:9.470 --> 1:2:15.450
Elysia McCaffrey
Let's just check that we can see and hear Martin, and we can see Suzanne again. Hi, Suzanne. I'll hand back over to you.

1:2:19.130 --> 1:2:19.890
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Can you hear me?

1:2:20.550 --> 1:2:21.260
Elysia McCaffrey
Yes.

1:2:21.320 --> 1:2:37.440
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
OK, thank you. You were doing such a great job. I should have just stayed off the line. But I am allowed to welcome very warmly. Martin Jones is going to talk to us about rolled up holiday pay, which sounded very exciting. Martin, over to you.

1:2:37.390 --> 1:2:37.830
Martin Jones
Yeah.

1:2:38.620 --> 1:2:40.310
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Hopefully I won't get kicked out again.

1:2:41.950 --> 1:3:4.150
Martin Jones
You might hope to, as I speak about ruled Apollo day, pay Suzanne. Good afternoon, everybody. I hope we're all well and thanks for all coming today. It's really a great pleasure to hear and see you all here today. It's just amazing. I've been asked to have a quick go over rolled up holiday pay. I'm no legal expert, but I'm gonna go just over the GLAA's position.

1:3:4.930 --> 1:3:6.500
Martin Jones
About Howe rolled up holiday pay.

1:3:7.460 --> 1:3:17.130
Martin Jones
So what we're seeing is the number of agencies and umbrella companies are applying for licenses or agencies working with umbrella companies are utilizing the older holiday pay working model.

1:3:18.450 --> 1:3:30.340
Martin Jones
Unfortunately, this can cause some issues, which I'm I'll outline a little later after I go through a few bits about rolled up holiday pay and where it comes from, but it's best to go over briefly. Some legislation surrounding the area.

1:3:31.310 --> 1:4:3.430
Martin Jones
So as you all know, the Working Time Directive Article 7 says that Member States shall take measures where necessary to ensure that every worker is entitled to get paid and for their annual leave of at least four weeks in accordance with the conditions for entitlement to and the granting of such leave laid down by national legislation and all practice. And this is a direct lift from the Working Time Directive. It then then says the minimum period of paid annual leave may not be replaced by an allowance in lieu, except where the employment relationship is terminated.

1:4:4.330 --> 1:4:36.60
Martin Jones
And I'll cover that a little bit further as we go on. So the working time Regulations implements the Working Time Directive through the statutory instrument of 1998 and it's 1833 important in here. Notice the two bits I've picked out where section 13 was the entitlement to annual leave. So section 13 and paranoid sort of sets out leaves which are workers entitled and this regulation may be taken in installment, but it may only be taken in the leave heating respective which is due.

1:4:36.260 --> 1:4:45.430
Martin Jones
And it may not be replaced by payment in lieu, except where the worker's employment is terminated. So it's reiterating here what the Working Time Directive has already said.

1:4:46.520 --> 1:4:58.310
Martin Jones
Section 16. A workers entitled to be paid in respect of only period of annual leave to which he is entitled Under Regulation 13 at a rate of one week's pay in respect of each week of leave.

1:5:0.410 --> 1:5:1.420
Martin Jones
So then going on.

1:5:2.680 --> 1:5:8.300
Martin Jones
To what Acas is saying about holiday pay and it's saying.

1:5:9.460 --> 1:5:20.370
Martin Jones
Workers must get paid for your holiday pay for when they take it. So if the employee is spreading the holiday pay over the year by adding an amount on top of the hourly rate, this is known as older polypay.

1:5:21.250 --> 1:5:23.160
Martin Jones
And your employer should not do this.

1:5:24.30 --> 1:5:24.580
Martin Jones
So.

1:5:26.910 --> 1:5:39.970
Martin Jones
Working time regulations and the health and safety executive, the health and safety executive talk about what they are responsible for the enforcement of, so the maximum weekly working time limit.

1:5:40.990 --> 1:5:56.80
Martin Jones
Knight working limits and health assessments for Nice night work, but what the health and Safety Executive Executive does not do is enforce time off rest breaks, entitlements or paid leave entitlements.

1:5:57.0 --> 1:5:59.50
Martin Jones
Now, as you know under the.

1:6:0.700 --> 1:6:8.420
Martin Jones
GLAA uh Licensing Standards Section 4.1 talks about quality of accommodation holiday pay at 2.5.

1:6:9.280 --> 1:6:13.850
Martin Jones
UM, as a sort of critical thing of of holiday pay being paid.

1:6:14.820 --> 1:6:17.570
Martin Jones
So interestingly, the case law.

1:6:18.700 --> 1:6:27.390
Martin Jones
Still leaves a little bit of a Gray area in real terms, as you're probably aware, some of you aware Robinson Steele versus Rd retail services and other cases.

1:6:28.110 --> 1:6:35.210
Martin Jones
Umm, confirm that rolled up holiday pay is incompatible with the Working Time Directive. The ruling of 2006.

1:6:36.450 --> 1:6:51.0
Martin Jones
Decided that it is contrary to the Working time directory for payment of annual leave to be made in the form of payment staggered over the year and paid together with room nation for the work done other than the form of payment respect of a specific period during which the work actually takes leave.

1:6:52.920 --> 1:7:3.610
Martin Jones
So if you go to the UK Gov website, it reiterates that holiday pay should be paid for the time that went annual leave is taken and employer cannot include an amount of holiday pay.

1:7:4.550 --> 1:7:10.650
Martin Jones
In the Avery right, if a contract includes rolled up holiday pay, it needs to be renegotiated.

1:7:13.360 --> 1:7:13.870
Martin Jones
So.

1:7:15.70 --> 1:7:27.850
Martin Jones
Also, it's sort of like the attorney general had said as well, and and and also reiterated in Lyden versus angle field, brickwork, EA T-0301 of 07.

1:7:28.740 --> 1:7:29.260
Martin Jones
Where?

1:7:30.30 --> 1:7:42.20
Martin Jones
They rolled it pays continued to be paid as long as the payments are clearly identified as holiday pay and employer is entitled to offset the rolled up holiday pay against the claim by the worker for their holiday in time.

1:7:45.680 --> 1:7:46.790
Martin Jones
But if we consider.

1:7:47.960 --> 1:7:49.780
Martin Jones
This decision that.

1:7:51.190 --> 1:8:4.10
Martin Jones
Whilst technically holiday, rolled up, holiday pay is unlawful, but any sums already pay to the workers under transparent rolled up holiday practice could be offset against any claim for unpaid holiday pay.

1:8:5.350 --> 1:8:17.370
Martin Jones
So the European Court justices failed to advise on the time period for the set off period which which is called, it's still mentioned, but they can apply to Lee, can apply to leaving employers none the wiser in regards to their liability.

1:8:19.810 --> 1:8:49.880
Martin Jones
Any IT versus coalfield? It was said over to which said by the way that in order for arrangements to be transparent, rolled up, holiday pay must be clearly incorporated into individual contract of employment and thus expressly agreed. And it's talking about contract of employment here, not contract of service, the allocation of the percentage or amount of holiday pay must be clearly identified in the contract and preferably also in pay slips and holiday pay must amount to the true addition of the contractual rate of pay records of holiday pay must be kept.

1:8:50.260 --> 1:9:0.710
Martin Jones
And reasonably practicable steps must be taken to require workers to take the holidays before the expiry of the relevant holiday here, so that's quite important as well.

1:9:1.390 --> 1:9:10.80
Martin Jones
The taking of the steps to ensure that that the workers are actually fully aware where they are with their holiday leave for that year and the requirement for the work is really to take the holiday.

1:9:13.80 --> 1:9:20.890
Martin Jones
So in real terms, the Robinson Steel case is a way of sort of deterring people.

1:9:22.720 --> 1:9:25.920
Martin Jones
Not to take the holiday, rather encouraging them to take the holiday.

1:9:27.760 --> 1:9:35.270
Martin Jones
But interestingly, if if the workers successfully argues that they were prevented from taking annual leave, they might be entitled to claim and receive just.

1:9:36.10 --> 1:9:39.650
Martin Jones
And equitable compensation for the breach of the Working Time Regulation.

1:9:40.480 --> 1:9:46.710
Martin Jones
The set of real the set off rule has been mentioned in Robinson Steel would not apply.

1:9:47.900 --> 1:9:52.700
Martin Jones
And the employee may find it effectively paying twice for the annual leave. So in other words, that.

1:9:53.610 --> 1:9:54.60
Martin Jones
Where?

1:9:55.220 --> 1:9:59.170
Martin Jones
Rolled up holiday pay, doesn't take into account irregular working hours.

1:9:59.920 --> 1:10:23.130
Martin Jones
The employee may not be receiving or the employee, I should say may not be received in a fully entitlement to the holiday pay, so particularly problems will arise when irregular hours are worked and there are some work, some weeks of work, the year where the worker does not carry out any work. So in other words, as it says, the Working Time Directive, they should get their holiday through as payment as a full week.

1:10:24.850 --> 1:10:25.320
Martin Jones
So.

1:10:27.990 --> 1:10:37.230
Martin Jones
In essence, so following on from the case law, employers are still left with the problem of how to deal with the annual leave in time or a casual term time workers.

1:10:37.990 --> 1:10:49.20
Martin Jones
So it would seem that only practical solution would be to invest in the computer software, making sure that that's all sorted. But that's not for me to to really say, but this is the sort of advice and guidance that I've seen sort of thing.

1:10:50.530 --> 1:11:16.20
Martin Jones
So wanting to consider where a worker takes leave early in the year, there may be insufficient holiday pay rolled up to set off against the pay that they're entitled to for that period of leave and businesses used who use rolled up holiday pay as they do face some risks of potential double payment. So we're workers successfully argues that they have been deterred from taking the holidays. They may be entitled to adjust an equitable compensation.

1:11:17.480 --> 1:11:20.920
Martin Jones
So this leaves really for for our position at the GLAA.

1:11:21.960 --> 1:11:29.70
Martin Jones
As I said, the guidance on UK Gov website is that an employer cannot include amount of holiday pay in the hourly rate.

1:11:29.850 --> 1:11:35.540
Martin Jones
And the guidance continues to say for current contracts still includes rolled up police pay. It needs to be renegotiated.

1:11:37.270 --> 1:11:49.640
Martin Jones
There's Department of Business and Energy and industrial strategy. They have guidance on calculating holiday pay for workers without fixed hours or pay rates. And that says no quote here. Workers should be encouraged to take leave from work.

1:11:50.450 --> 1:12:2.0
Martin Jones
Receiving their normal level of pay while they're on holiday rolled up holiday pay axes and the lawful descent defensive to take holiday as a workers hourly rate includes the additional top up amount.

1:12:2.810 --> 1:12:6.780
Martin Jones
So we can also result in an underpayment of a workers statutory holiday entitlement.

1:12:9.410 --> 1:12:14.360
Martin Jones
So although much of the guidance strongly advises against businesses in the world, Apollo to pay.

1:12:16.420 --> 1:12:17.400
Martin Jones
In real terms.

1:12:18.350 --> 1:12:26.600
Martin Jones
It is sort of strictly not following the Working Time Directive or the Working time regulations of 98, but as we've said.

1:12:27.390 --> 1:12:41.160
Martin Jones
Currently at the moment, as long as there's a clear breakdown on the playslips for the additional holiday pay and the work is basic pay, they're all up. Holiday pay should be shown as a separate figures and workers are not prevented from taking their annual leave and should be encouraged to.

1:12:41.930 --> 1:12:47.140
Martin Jones
To take their annual leave and we would look for evidence of this to make sure that that is happening that.

1:12:47.910 --> 1:12:51.130
Martin Jones
Yeah, Nexus is a place in their payslips, for example.

1:12:52.380 --> 1:12:52.940
Martin Jones
So.

1:12:54.500 --> 1:12:58.360
Martin Jones
The GLAA point will be is that whilst rolled up holiday pay.

1:12:59.240 --> 1:13:12.30
Martin Jones
The guidance is pretty ambiguous. We would strongly discourage labour providers from using world of holiday play, especially where you've got a labour provider who's working with an umbrella company and both have different.

1:13:13.720 --> 1:13:15.890
Martin Jones
Leave years set up in their contracts.

1:13:17.520 --> 1:13:24.380
Martin Jones
So as far as we're concerned, rolled up on this page, should be written out of contract, which was advice. We've received a little while ago.

1:13:25.740 --> 1:13:46.700
Martin Jones
And we prefer the LP's to use the usual holiday payment terms and pay workers that they take their leave so that will ensure and encourage workers to take their holiday going forward and not just to be consistently at the workplace. And we're aware that this does happen. We've had agencies come into apply for licenses where the.

1:13:48.160 --> 1:14:3.320
Martin Jones
Workers I've I've been paid the holiday pay and they haven't taken holiday for a number of years because quite simply, they're getting their pay and the holiday pay. But they didn't think they could still take holiday. But if they did take holiday, that wouldn't be paid and that would put them at a disadvantage.

1:14:4.610 --> 1:14:9.880
Martin Jones
I hope that's OK because I've come to the end of my wee bit on rolled up holiday pay.

1:14:11.210 --> 1:14:35.650
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you. I'm very much, Martin. I have a question for you, which is how my Isaac Addo, how much notice should the employer give to the employees if the previous contract stated? And I quote, If holiday are not taken, this will pay this Lou live too. If holiday is not taking, it can be rolled over to the next year on a permanent contract.

1:14:36.610 --> 1:14:37.340
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
And of quote.

1:14:38.310 --> 1:14:43.300
Martin Jones
Right. I I believe that some businesses will carry over holiday for a period of time.

1:14:45.330 --> 1:14:54.450
Martin Jones
But generally they don't have to. If a worker should be taken their leave within their leave year whenever that may start and end.

1:14:56.230 --> 1:15:9.480
Martin Jones
Some businesses will carry X amount of days over and and that's dependent on the business and that should be written into the contract for the worker. What we're saying as well is, is that workers should be advised on a regular basis.

1:15:10.860 --> 1:15:36.130
Martin Jones
On where they are with their leave, or how much they got leave left. You know some people will. Some business will include leave time in their pay slips to pre warm workers where they are with their holiday. And of course there are periods where there are busy periods that workers won't be allowed to take holiday because that'll be a business decision and that's quite lawful too.

1:15:37.420 --> 1:15:51.990
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
We've got something with Joanne who wants to play for tation? She asked Joanne Young. You asked to be clear. Does the GLAA consider that the pavement of rolled up holiday pay is a breach of licence things standard 2.5.

1:15:55.450 --> 1:15:58.720
Martin Jones
In relation to 2.5, it's basically I just.

1:16:0.760 --> 1:16:21.290
Martin Jones
Confirm what? What it actually says here it says the licence holder must maintain records to show that worker receives a paid holiday pay. Worker must be paid any holiday pay to which they're legally entitled to during the course of their engagement. We're workers. Engagement is terminated during the course of alleviate licence. Holder must give them their payment in lieu. I've only accrued and unused.

1:16:22.800 --> 1:16:24.0
Martin Jones
Holding time so.

1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:26.890
Martin Jones
In real terms, as I said.

1:16:28.330 --> 1:16:49.550
Martin Jones
It's all ambiguous. Is the Working Time Directive and the Worker regulations and the decisions in Robinson Steel and other cases. So it has been decided as long as there's potential clarity in the fact that a worker knows and and they've signed up to it and it's in the contract that that they should receive.

1:16:51.200 --> 1:16:54.230
Martin Jones
Well, they they've agreed to receive their their payments.

1:16:55.80 --> 1:17:21.180
Martin Jones
In lieu of the holidays before they take it, then you know it's OK and you know Nicola will confirm or deny this bit, but I don't think it will affect their sort of application or or their license state that's it's just that that basically we would prefer labour providers to ensure that workers would take their leave and they would be paid their fully entitlement for when they're on leave.

1:17:22.120 --> 1:17:30.460
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
I've got a note from Nicola but I don't know if she wants to come on screen and actually speak directly to those on the webinar. Nicola, can you do that?

1:17:31.70 --> 1:17:34.310
Nicola Ray
Yeah, I don't. If you could see me yet, I'm talking, yes.

1:17:33.880 --> 1:17:34.640
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Yes, we can.

1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:45.530
Nicola Ray
We do regard uh rolled up holiday pay as a non compliance in terms of licensing. Yeah, we follow the Bayes position that it's strictly is not legal and that's why we follow that position.

1:17:46.790 --> 1:17:47.520
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you. We have.

1:18:6.910 --> 1:18:7.190
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Yes.

1:17:46.920 --> 1:18:8.660
Nicola Ray
There is quite an old piece of advice on our on our website was just trying to find the link to drop it into the chat. If I can find it in a minute I will add it into the chat. That just confirms our position. It was back in 2008 so it's quite an old piece concept. People might not be aware of, but yeah, our position is that we don't regard it as being compliant with the licensing standards for those businesses operate rolled up holiday pay.

1:18:9.90 --> 1:18:19.170
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
We've got something from David Camp who says that GLAA has always been clear in the GLAA brief that it does regard rolled up holiday pay as a non compliance.

1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:23.630
Nicola Ray
Yep.

1:18:23.290 --> 1:18:27.310
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
I don't know if either Nicola or Martin want to respond to what David has said.

1:18:29.950 --> 1:18:30.310
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
And OK.

1:18:27.280 --> 1:18:31.310
Nicola Ray
Yeah, that is, that is our position on rolled up Holiday Bay, yeah.

1:18:31.280 --> 1:18:33.640
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Well, it's good to have that clarified. Thank you.

1:18:34.90 --> 1:18:51.160
Martin Jones
Especially where also the role of holiday pay is used to go as part of the actual pay itself, where they're using that to to boost the pay up to national minimum wage, for example. So it's users as that calculation especially in that area, yeah.

1:18:58.370 --> 1:18:58.720
Martin Jones
OK.

1:18:51.990 --> 1:19:6.320
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
Thank you. I haven't had anymore questions or comments that have come in on this, Martin. So I think we'll leave it there. But if any do come in to either you or Nicola, I know that you will answer them. Thank you very much.

1:19:7.140 --> 1:19:7.500
Martin Jones
Thank you.

1:19:7.100 --> 1:19:37.530
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
I will continue to the end of the webinar. We only have two small items. One is the terms of reference for the labor user, labour provider group and I can tell you that we did send them out. We haven't had any comments on them. So we will allow them to continue. I see the Nicholas just put the link in a regarding the spring twenty 08 issue 8 that other people might want to see about a holiday pay.

1:19:37.960 --> 1:20:6.400
Suzanne Mccarthy (GLAA)
So that needs on to any other business. I haven't been notified of anything. The next meeting is planned for the 19th of September. I hope you feel that today's agenda has been informative and and interesting. We hope to have an equally informative and interesting agenda in September, but I'm now going to a close the webinar and wish you all a very good afternoon. So thank you very much for joining us.